Heavily Broken (Chapter Forty Eight)
Apr. 24th, 2007 10:53 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
Title: Heavily Broken (Chapter Forty Eight)
Author: Mara
Rating: R
Warnings: Sex, mentions of rape, violence. Language.
Summary: Ryan didn't call Sandy after Dawn kicked him out, but he still finds his way to the Cohen family.
Notes: Been a little while since I last posted, but I've got the HB soundtrack (Or what I currently have of it, since my new plans came about some of the songs needed to be changed... lol) playing on repeat to keep me focused... lol
Chapter Forty Eight

Many thanks to
chrissydechagny for the most excellent banner!
At Dr. Anderson's office, Ryan had to fight to stay sitting upright, and Kirsten sat beside him rubbing his back as he leaned against her.
"Ryan, have you been sleeping okay?" Dr. Anderson asked.
"Not really," Ryan said.
"How long?"
"Since I ran out of the sleeping pills you prescribed," Ryan admitted.
"That was weeks ago," Kirsten said. "Honey, you should have told us."
"I think it's probably the flu, and it's hitting him hard because he hasn't been getting enough sleep," Dr. Anderson said. "I'll give you something to make you feel better, and I'll prescribe something to help you sleep, okay?" she added to Ryan, offering a reassuring smile.
"Okay," Ryan replied wearily.
Dr. Anderson nodded and left, followed by Sandy. "Yes?" she said when she realized he was behind.
"Can you go ahead and run another STD test?" Sandy asked, clearly worried. "I know his last results were negative, but..."
"I already did," Dr. Anderson said. "We'll get the results in a couple days and I'll call you as soon as they're in."
"Thank you," Sandy said. "I just have a feeling that we should be more worried about this."
"He's seeing a therapist now, right?"
"Yeah, for a while," Sandy said, nodding. "I think it's been helping."
"You might want to tell the doctor about this, and about your concerns," Dr. Anderson said. "They may be able to get him to open up about anything that he's keeping quiet about. And if he does, it might help him feel better quicker. I don't like prescribing sleeping pills to minors, it can be dangerous, but... not sleeping is dangerous, too."
"I'll talk to Dr. Julian," Sandy said, nodding. "Hopefully you're right and she'll be able to help him."
~~~
Back in the exam room, Kirsten had convinced Ryan to lay down while they waited, and she decided she needed to say something. "I'm so sorry about my father and what he said," she whispered.
"Not your fault," Ryan replied.
"If I'd known, I would have done something sooner," Kirsten continued. "He's wrong about you, he didn't even bother to get to know you before making a judgement."
"I didn't wanna tell you," Ryan whispered.
"Why not?" Kirsten asked.
"I didn't wanna hurt you," Ryan replied, his voice full of sadness. "I'm sorry, Kirsten."
"Oh honey," Kirsten said, closing her eyes and trying to fight back her tears. "It's not your fault. He made the choice to be so horrible, and I should have been more careful... I told him about your mother visiting you and being drunk, it's probably where he got the idea to track her down. I made a big mistake."
"You didn't mean to," Ryan said.
Kirsten kissed his temple. "I'm still sorry," she whispered. "And I'm sorry about how Seth's been treating you, and I swear we're gonna find a way to work this all out."
"Okay," Ryan mumbled.
Sandy returned then and took a seat in the chair next to Kirsten's. "We'll have you home in no time," he said.
"She gonna redo my STD test?" Ryan asked.
"She already did," Sandy said.
"How about, when we get home, you lay down on the couch for a while?" Kirsten suggested. "We can watch a movie."
"Sounds good," Ryan agreed, smiling slightly.
~~~
By the time they got back to the house, Summer's jeep and Luke's truck were both in the driveway. "You feel up to visitors?" Sandy asked as he watched his wife put an arm around Ryan to guide him inside.
"Yeah," Ryan said, nodding.
They found Summer, Luke, Taylor, and Marissa in the living room, talking to Sophie and playing Grand Theft Auto. Sandy watched, stunned for a moment as he heard his mother telling Taylor that she had to speed up if she wanted to escape the cops.
"And try not to crash into a light pole," Ryan added.
"Chino!" Summer said. "We were worried when Cohen said you were sick."
"What's wrong?" Taylor asked.
"Flu and lack of sleep," Ryan said, sinking down onto the couch. "I've got medicine, I'll be fine."
"Coop said you were fine last night," Summer said, glancing over at her friend for confirmation.
"You were," Marissa said. "I mean... you looked a little pale right before you left, but..."
"Don't worry about it," Ryan said, offering the girls a shaky smile. "I just need to actually sleep a little more often. Less drawing, more sleeping."
"Good philosophy," Sandy said. "So actually you kids should probably go, Ryan needs to try to rest before dinner."
"We brought your homework, it's in the poolhouse," Taylor said. "And one of us will bring tomorrow's if you're not better yet."
"Thanks, guys," Ryan said.
"It was nice meeting you, Mrs. Cohen," Marissa said to Sophie as the teenagers got up.
"Love you, Chino," Summer said, kissing his cheek. "Call me when you feel better, okay?"
"Sure," Ryan agreed.
As the four teens left, Sophie nodded. "They're sweet kids," she said.
"Even Luke?" Ryan asked, curious.
"Even Luke," Sophie agreed. "Now you just stretch out while us grown ups talk, alright?"
Ryan nodded and kicked off his shoes then swung his legs up on the couch as directed, settling against the cushions as Sophie spread a throw over him.
The adults walked into the kitchen and Sophie looked expectant. "Is what he said true? Just the flu and not sleeping?"
"That's what Dr. Anderson thinks," Sandy confirmed. "He's gotta try to rest and actually get some sleep. I hope he hasn't been regularly getting up at night to smoke like last night."
Sophie hesitated, trying to decide between keeping Ryan's confidence or telling them so they could do something. After a moment, her desire to protect him overwhelmed her desire for Ryan to like her. "He didn't want you to know, but I think you need to," she said. "He had a run-in with a former customer recently."
"What?!" Sandy asked, immediately lowering his voice as Kirsten grabbed his arm. "What? When did he... how do you know?"
"He told me," Sophie said. "Last night, I caught him throwing up in the bushes, and when I pushed he told me."
"Where? When?" Sandy said.
"Next door," Sophie said. "The man's the father of that sweet girl, Marissa."
"Jimmy?" Kirsten asked, shaking her head. "No... Jimmy wouldn't..."
"Ryan told me he did," Sophie said. "I understand that man may be a friend of yours, but..."
"If he is hurting my child he is going to pay," Kirsten said. She released Sandy's arm and walked back to the living room, finding Ryan awake and clearly having overheard. "Honey? Is what Sophie said true?"
Ryan sighed and closed his eyes, shooting a hurt look at Sophie before turning back to Kirsten. "Yes," he said. "I recognized him as soon as I saw him. And he recognized me. He... he was waiting outside this morning when I went to get the paper," he added. "I guess he left right before you came out, because he was there and he... he said some stuff."
"What sort of 'stuff'?" Sandy asked, trying not to look as sick as he felt.
Ryan sighed again, but was just too tired to try and argue his way out of it. "Stuff about what I used to do, and how Kirsten must not know because she wouldn't want something like me in her house, and how when she found out and made me leave I should call him..."
"That bastard," Sandy said.
Kirsten took a shaky breath, then knelt down beside the couch and gently brushed Ryan's hair off his face. "Don't worry about this, okay, baby?" she said. "You're not in any trouble, and nothing is going to ever make me kick you out and send you back to that. I promise you, Ryan, I will never let anyone hurt you like that. Okay?"
"Okay," Ryan said quietly.
Kirsten nodded and got up. "Sandy, you stay here, I'll be back," she said.
"Where are you going?" Sandy asked.
"Julie needs to know what sort of man Jimmy is so she can keep him away from the girls," Kirsten said.
"But..." Sandy began, glancing at Ryan.
"If you think it's better for her to know, it's okay," Ryan said, understanding Sandy's protest was for the sake of his privacy. "Marissa's my friend, I just don't want her or her sister getting hurt."
"I'll try to leave your name out of it," Kirsten promised before leaving. She was just rounding the driveway when she spotted Julie climbing into her car. "Julie, I'm glad I caught you."
"I had to wait for Marissa to get home and watch Kaitlin," Julie said. "I heard about the boy being sick..."
"For now, I'm not even going to ask if you knew about what my father said to Ryan," Kirsten said. "There's something you need to know about Jimmy."
"What?" Julie asked.
"He was, and may still be, frequently prostitutes," Kirsten said.
"I know," Julie said. "Male prostitutes," she said. "I figured it out when he started calling male names while we were screwing. It's part of why I kicked him out."
"But you're fine with him being around the girls?" Kirsten said. "Did you know at least one of the boys he was with was underage?"
"How do you know that?" Julie asked. Then the light seemed to come on and her mouth widened in surprise. "Wait... are you saying that boy is...?"
"Was," Kirsten said. "He was 15 and no where to go and no way to make money. He was scared, and desperate, and Jimmy took advantage of that."
"Oh my God," Julie said, clearly stunned. "Jimmy wasn't responsible for the bruises, was he?" she asked.
"I don't know," Kirsten said. "I didn't want to make Ryan tell me that. Jimmy harassed him about it this morning, and Ryan had told my mother-in-law when she pressed, and she told us because she thought it was better for Ryan if we knew and could protect him. I think the only reason Ryan confirmed it is that he's sick and half asleep because of the meds he's on."
"I'll drive you to Jimmy's," Julie said coldly. "I think we both need to have a little talk with my ex-husband. I may be a bitch, I may treat people badly, but hurting children like that... No."
"That's the Julie I call my friend," Kirsten said as she climbed into the passenger side of the car.
~~~
Sandy left Sophie with Ryan and started towards the stairs to check on Seth, only to find his son sitting on the steps, a horrified look on his face. "Seth?"
"Ryan... Ryan was a...?" Seth asked.
Sandy sighed and sat down beside him. "He was scared, and alone, and desperate to survive. Foster homes hadn't been good to him, so he didn't want to go back into the system. He's here because a john beat him, and when he wound up in the hospital, they found my card in his wallet from when I'd represented him last August. Your mom and I decided to bring him home with us because he needed a place to be where no one would hurt him in any way." He sighed. "Do you understand why we came down so hard on you for what you tried to do? If he's not here, he could end up right back there, and if that happens... I don't think he'd survive beyond a couple weeks."
"I didn't know," Seth said.
"Now you do," Sandy said. "Don't push him about it, don't ask him about it."
"I won't," Seth said quietly. "He probably hates me," he added after a minute. "I can't fix what I did, can I?"
"I don't know," Sandy said. "I think Ryan might be able to forgive you in time, but... you have to give him some time."
Seth nodded slowly. "I won't tell him I know," he said.
"That might be for the best," Sandy agreed, nodding.
"What's mom gonna do to Mr. Cooper?" Seth asked.
"I don't know, but I may need you to help The Nana out while I go bail your mom out," Sandy said with a slight, worried, smile.
Seth grinned. "Sure I can't go with you? It might help scare me straight."
Sandy snorted and put an arm around Seth's shoulders. "You're not a bad kid, Seth," he said. "You just... we've spoiled you a lot more than we should have. We didn't lay down enough rules, we didn't punish you much, we let you do what you want. You need to try and start growing up, son. You can't stay this kinda kid forever, it's not god for anyone around you."
"I promise," Seth said, nodding.
"Good," Sandy agreed. "Now go do your homework, okay?"
"Sure," Seth said, standing along with Sandy. "Hey Dad?"
"Yeah?"
"I love you."
"Love you, too, son," Sandy agreed, giving Seth a hug.
To Be Continued...
In like half an hour, this went from only having until the point at Dr. Anderson's office when Kirsten tells Ryan that it's not his fault that she's upset with her father, to all of this... lol... I wanted to have everyone know about Jimmy, and I wanted Seth to finally begin to really understand...
I don't really know what's gonna happen on the Julie/Caleb front... I don't even know for sure if Julie knew about Caleb's 'trash' comments to Ryan, let alone the Dawn stuff... the way I see it, I can either have Julie and Caleb still get married, or Julie can call off the wedding because she's disgusted with Caleb... either way, there's still a slim chance of redemption for Caleb, but if I have Julie call off the wedding it begins HER redemption sooner (I liked late 3rd season Julie and 4th season Julie, so I kinda wanna move her towards there... lol)... oooh... either way I just had a brilliant idea for a conversation between Ryan and Julie... lol...
Anyway, anyone have an opinion about Julie/Caleb? I don't want detailed ideas, but would you guys rather see them marry? Or see Julie call it off? Or something in between?
Author: Mara
Rating: R
Warnings: Sex, mentions of rape, violence. Language.
Summary: Ryan didn't call Sandy after Dawn kicked him out, but he still finds his way to the Cohen family.
Notes: Been a little while since I last posted, but I've got the HB soundtrack (Or what I currently have of it, since my new plans came about some of the songs needed to be changed... lol) playing on repeat to keep me focused... lol
Chapter Forty Eight

Many thanks to
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
At Dr. Anderson's office, Ryan had to fight to stay sitting upright, and Kirsten sat beside him rubbing his back as he leaned against her.
"Ryan, have you been sleeping okay?" Dr. Anderson asked.
"Not really," Ryan said.
"How long?"
"Since I ran out of the sleeping pills you prescribed," Ryan admitted.
"That was weeks ago," Kirsten said. "Honey, you should have told us."
"I think it's probably the flu, and it's hitting him hard because he hasn't been getting enough sleep," Dr. Anderson said. "I'll give you something to make you feel better, and I'll prescribe something to help you sleep, okay?" she added to Ryan, offering a reassuring smile.
"Okay," Ryan replied wearily.
Dr. Anderson nodded and left, followed by Sandy. "Yes?" she said when she realized he was behind.
"Can you go ahead and run another STD test?" Sandy asked, clearly worried. "I know his last results were negative, but..."
"I already did," Dr. Anderson said. "We'll get the results in a couple days and I'll call you as soon as they're in."
"Thank you," Sandy said. "I just have a feeling that we should be more worried about this."
"He's seeing a therapist now, right?"
"Yeah, for a while," Sandy said, nodding. "I think it's been helping."
"You might want to tell the doctor about this, and about your concerns," Dr. Anderson said. "They may be able to get him to open up about anything that he's keeping quiet about. And if he does, it might help him feel better quicker. I don't like prescribing sleeping pills to minors, it can be dangerous, but... not sleeping is dangerous, too."
"I'll talk to Dr. Julian," Sandy said, nodding. "Hopefully you're right and she'll be able to help him."
~~~
Back in the exam room, Kirsten had convinced Ryan to lay down while they waited, and she decided she needed to say something. "I'm so sorry about my father and what he said," she whispered.
"Not your fault," Ryan replied.
"If I'd known, I would have done something sooner," Kirsten continued. "He's wrong about you, he didn't even bother to get to know you before making a judgement."
"I didn't wanna tell you," Ryan whispered.
"Why not?" Kirsten asked.
"I didn't wanna hurt you," Ryan replied, his voice full of sadness. "I'm sorry, Kirsten."
"Oh honey," Kirsten said, closing her eyes and trying to fight back her tears. "It's not your fault. He made the choice to be so horrible, and I should have been more careful... I told him about your mother visiting you and being drunk, it's probably where he got the idea to track her down. I made a big mistake."
"You didn't mean to," Ryan said.
Kirsten kissed his temple. "I'm still sorry," she whispered. "And I'm sorry about how Seth's been treating you, and I swear we're gonna find a way to work this all out."
"Okay," Ryan mumbled.
Sandy returned then and took a seat in the chair next to Kirsten's. "We'll have you home in no time," he said.
"She gonna redo my STD test?" Ryan asked.
"She already did," Sandy said.
"How about, when we get home, you lay down on the couch for a while?" Kirsten suggested. "We can watch a movie."
"Sounds good," Ryan agreed, smiling slightly.
~~~
By the time they got back to the house, Summer's jeep and Luke's truck were both in the driveway. "You feel up to visitors?" Sandy asked as he watched his wife put an arm around Ryan to guide him inside.
"Yeah," Ryan said, nodding.
They found Summer, Luke, Taylor, and Marissa in the living room, talking to Sophie and playing Grand Theft Auto. Sandy watched, stunned for a moment as he heard his mother telling Taylor that she had to speed up if she wanted to escape the cops.
"And try not to crash into a light pole," Ryan added.
"Chino!" Summer said. "We were worried when Cohen said you were sick."
"What's wrong?" Taylor asked.
"Flu and lack of sleep," Ryan said, sinking down onto the couch. "I've got medicine, I'll be fine."
"Coop said you were fine last night," Summer said, glancing over at her friend for confirmation.
"You were," Marissa said. "I mean... you looked a little pale right before you left, but..."
"Don't worry about it," Ryan said, offering the girls a shaky smile. "I just need to actually sleep a little more often. Less drawing, more sleeping."
"Good philosophy," Sandy said. "So actually you kids should probably go, Ryan needs to try to rest before dinner."
"We brought your homework, it's in the poolhouse," Taylor said. "And one of us will bring tomorrow's if you're not better yet."
"Thanks, guys," Ryan said.
"It was nice meeting you, Mrs. Cohen," Marissa said to Sophie as the teenagers got up.
"Love you, Chino," Summer said, kissing his cheek. "Call me when you feel better, okay?"
"Sure," Ryan agreed.
As the four teens left, Sophie nodded. "They're sweet kids," she said.
"Even Luke?" Ryan asked, curious.
"Even Luke," Sophie agreed. "Now you just stretch out while us grown ups talk, alright?"
Ryan nodded and kicked off his shoes then swung his legs up on the couch as directed, settling against the cushions as Sophie spread a throw over him.
The adults walked into the kitchen and Sophie looked expectant. "Is what he said true? Just the flu and not sleeping?"
"That's what Dr. Anderson thinks," Sandy confirmed. "He's gotta try to rest and actually get some sleep. I hope he hasn't been regularly getting up at night to smoke like last night."
Sophie hesitated, trying to decide between keeping Ryan's confidence or telling them so they could do something. After a moment, her desire to protect him overwhelmed her desire for Ryan to like her. "He didn't want you to know, but I think you need to," she said. "He had a run-in with a former customer recently."
"What?!" Sandy asked, immediately lowering his voice as Kirsten grabbed his arm. "What? When did he... how do you know?"
"He told me," Sophie said. "Last night, I caught him throwing up in the bushes, and when I pushed he told me."
"Where? When?" Sandy said.
"Next door," Sophie said. "The man's the father of that sweet girl, Marissa."
"Jimmy?" Kirsten asked, shaking her head. "No... Jimmy wouldn't..."
"Ryan told me he did," Sophie said. "I understand that man may be a friend of yours, but..."
"If he is hurting my child he is going to pay," Kirsten said. She released Sandy's arm and walked back to the living room, finding Ryan awake and clearly having overheard. "Honey? Is what Sophie said true?"
Ryan sighed and closed his eyes, shooting a hurt look at Sophie before turning back to Kirsten. "Yes," he said. "I recognized him as soon as I saw him. And he recognized me. He... he was waiting outside this morning when I went to get the paper," he added. "I guess he left right before you came out, because he was there and he... he said some stuff."
"What sort of 'stuff'?" Sandy asked, trying not to look as sick as he felt.
Ryan sighed again, but was just too tired to try and argue his way out of it. "Stuff about what I used to do, and how Kirsten must not know because she wouldn't want something like me in her house, and how when she found out and made me leave I should call him..."
"That bastard," Sandy said.
Kirsten took a shaky breath, then knelt down beside the couch and gently brushed Ryan's hair off his face. "Don't worry about this, okay, baby?" she said. "You're not in any trouble, and nothing is going to ever make me kick you out and send you back to that. I promise you, Ryan, I will never let anyone hurt you like that. Okay?"
"Okay," Ryan said quietly.
Kirsten nodded and got up. "Sandy, you stay here, I'll be back," she said.
"Where are you going?" Sandy asked.
"Julie needs to know what sort of man Jimmy is so she can keep him away from the girls," Kirsten said.
"But..." Sandy began, glancing at Ryan.
"If you think it's better for her to know, it's okay," Ryan said, understanding Sandy's protest was for the sake of his privacy. "Marissa's my friend, I just don't want her or her sister getting hurt."
"I'll try to leave your name out of it," Kirsten promised before leaving. She was just rounding the driveway when she spotted Julie climbing into her car. "Julie, I'm glad I caught you."
"I had to wait for Marissa to get home and watch Kaitlin," Julie said. "I heard about the boy being sick..."
"For now, I'm not even going to ask if you knew about what my father said to Ryan," Kirsten said. "There's something you need to know about Jimmy."
"What?" Julie asked.
"He was, and may still be, frequently prostitutes," Kirsten said.
"I know," Julie said. "Male prostitutes," she said. "I figured it out when he started calling male names while we were screwing. It's part of why I kicked him out."
"But you're fine with him being around the girls?" Kirsten said. "Did you know at least one of the boys he was with was underage?"
"How do you know that?" Julie asked. Then the light seemed to come on and her mouth widened in surprise. "Wait... are you saying that boy is...?"
"Was," Kirsten said. "He was 15 and no where to go and no way to make money. He was scared, and desperate, and Jimmy took advantage of that."
"Oh my God," Julie said, clearly stunned. "Jimmy wasn't responsible for the bruises, was he?" she asked.
"I don't know," Kirsten said. "I didn't want to make Ryan tell me that. Jimmy harassed him about it this morning, and Ryan had told my mother-in-law when she pressed, and she told us because she thought it was better for Ryan if we knew and could protect him. I think the only reason Ryan confirmed it is that he's sick and half asleep because of the meds he's on."
"I'll drive you to Jimmy's," Julie said coldly. "I think we both need to have a little talk with my ex-husband. I may be a bitch, I may treat people badly, but hurting children like that... No."
"That's the Julie I call my friend," Kirsten said as she climbed into the passenger side of the car.
~~~
Sandy left Sophie with Ryan and started towards the stairs to check on Seth, only to find his son sitting on the steps, a horrified look on his face. "Seth?"
"Ryan... Ryan was a...?" Seth asked.
Sandy sighed and sat down beside him. "He was scared, and alone, and desperate to survive. Foster homes hadn't been good to him, so he didn't want to go back into the system. He's here because a john beat him, and when he wound up in the hospital, they found my card in his wallet from when I'd represented him last August. Your mom and I decided to bring him home with us because he needed a place to be where no one would hurt him in any way." He sighed. "Do you understand why we came down so hard on you for what you tried to do? If he's not here, he could end up right back there, and if that happens... I don't think he'd survive beyond a couple weeks."
"I didn't know," Seth said.
"Now you do," Sandy said. "Don't push him about it, don't ask him about it."
"I won't," Seth said quietly. "He probably hates me," he added after a minute. "I can't fix what I did, can I?"
"I don't know," Sandy said. "I think Ryan might be able to forgive you in time, but... you have to give him some time."
Seth nodded slowly. "I won't tell him I know," he said.
"That might be for the best," Sandy agreed, nodding.
"What's mom gonna do to Mr. Cooper?" Seth asked.
"I don't know, but I may need you to help The Nana out while I go bail your mom out," Sandy said with a slight, worried, smile.
Seth grinned. "Sure I can't go with you? It might help scare me straight."
Sandy snorted and put an arm around Seth's shoulders. "You're not a bad kid, Seth," he said. "You just... we've spoiled you a lot more than we should have. We didn't lay down enough rules, we didn't punish you much, we let you do what you want. You need to try and start growing up, son. You can't stay this kinda kid forever, it's not god for anyone around you."
"I promise," Seth said, nodding.
"Good," Sandy agreed. "Now go do your homework, okay?"
"Sure," Seth said, standing along with Sandy. "Hey Dad?"
"Yeah?"
"I love you."
"Love you, too, son," Sandy agreed, giving Seth a hug.
To Be Continued...
In like half an hour, this went from only having until the point at Dr. Anderson's office when Kirsten tells Ryan that it's not his fault that she's upset with her father, to all of this... lol... I wanted to have everyone know about Jimmy, and I wanted Seth to finally begin to really understand...
I don't really know what's gonna happen on the Julie/Caleb front... I don't even know for sure if Julie knew about Caleb's 'trash' comments to Ryan, let alone the Dawn stuff... the way I see it, I can either have Julie and Caleb still get married, or Julie can call off the wedding because she's disgusted with Caleb... either way, there's still a slim chance of redemption for Caleb, but if I have Julie call off the wedding it begins HER redemption sooner (I liked late 3rd season Julie and 4th season Julie, so I kinda wanna move her towards there... lol)... oooh... either way I just had a brilliant idea for a conversation between Ryan and Julie... lol...
Anyway, anyone have an opinion about Julie/Caleb? I don't want detailed ideas, but would you guys rather see them marry? Or see Julie call it off? Or something in between?